I am wondering if we are more concerned about 'Form' than 'Content'. In context to Sikhism, the original thought, it feels like that the leadership and the following by extension, are more concerned about the Form. Why else would otherwise there be a debate about supremacy of Dasam Granth over Adi Granth and/or vice-versa. Isn't it a direct contradiction to one of the basic principles of the rulebook, Non-Idolism. Shouldn't we be more concerned about the Bani collected in the books rather than which Book to consider as Guru. Moreover, what use it to have a Guru if we are not going to follow the Content. This way it doesn't come close to a decent reference book.
I will share another tangent to drive my point and keep it secular. We used to recite a pledge in our school. I choose to say recite because that is how it was. It had a line that went like ,"and all Indians are my brothers and sisters.". ALL of the boys in senior classes used ti skip repeating this line after the primary orator(Yours truly), for the reason obvious enough. No one, however, realized that it did not mean what it said. It was not to be taken literally but in fact was a metaphor. It referred towards the understanding and feeling of mutual harmony and unity among fellow citizens. To consider all others as brothers and sisters was to promote better treatment of others as you would with your own people.
What do you say Deshveer???
Pl Visit:-
ReplyDeletehttp://dasamgranthdasach.blogspot.com/
People on their own cannot do anything, it is with the blessings of guru that you realise what is correct and what is not.
ReplyDeleteif you would go through both of them you will realise the difference between Dasam Granth and Guru Granth sahib and as far as I have read some of the content of dasam granth, to me dasam granth looks like a sham and does not correlate with the Guru Sahibs teachings.
"bura bhala hum kis nu kahiyea"
neways with time, as it has happened b4, the actual teachings or knowledge is distorted by people in power to meet their own ends and people can change and distort history and can completely destroy it as well.
So only thing which I can say for sure is as per Guru Granth Sahib everything happens under God's Hukum and the ones he wants gets the actual knowledge with the blessings of true Guru, gets the knowledge, while others also under his Hukum continues in the cycle of life and death and live their life under ignorance, as it is not within ones power to realise God and get out of the cycle of life and death.
"Hukmey ander sab ko bahar Hukum na koi, Nanak Hukmey jey bhujey taa haumey kahe na koi"
there should be no fight over idol or nething as God is present everywhere all the time but he does not have ne form or colour or size so he is not the stone which 1 sees nor is he words which ones read in the Guru Granth sahib as he is "akath" which cannot be put into words, so he actually cannot even be described, therefore attuning him to a particular shape of context is not correct.
Actually God can neither be put into form not content, he is limitless, as a persons inner self (soul, mann, etc.) does not have form or shape or colour as it is the part of the creator and not the body.
neways he does as he likes, & no one has ne say in that as he is not bound to nething & is not answerable to ne1.
"Satguru mera bemahutaj"
Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh,
ReplyDeleteVeer Deshveer singh ji,
I would request you to go through the blog once again as I feel that you are not on the same page as of the author (Sherry Singh). The reason I am saying this is because he (Sherry Singh) discussed this topic with me before putting this in words. The main idea or topic was about the form in general i.e. do we consider the form (the book or the pages) as the guru or the shabad in it. While discussing this we ended up at a conclusion where we feel that if we take out the shabad out of the Guru Granth Sahib, it is just another book with blank pages. However if we write "IK ONKAR" even on a peace of paper we would try not to disrespect or throw that paper in the bin, as we would do to a piece of paper taken out from a notebook. I hope you are getting my point. It wasn't about putting the GOD in a form or limiting it to size or shape. I would like your comments on this. BTW i agree with each and everything what you have written, but it was not relating to what the blog was about.
KIHA SUNEYA MAAF
Tuhada chotta veer
Prabh Singh
Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh
What I fail to understand is that why the discussion is centered towards the first para of the post. It was due to this specific reason that I shared the anecdote from my school. This discussion kind of proves the point that we are too concerned about the form and not the content. Had we chosen to relate to content and context we would have known that both paragraphs carry the same message. Its NOT HOW it is said, but WHAT is being said; be it Adi Granth, Dasam Granth or my school Pledge.
ReplyDeleteoh... wasn't aware where the discussion waz coming 4m...
ReplyDeleteyes u r right, Its the Shabad that is the Guru
"Shabad Guru, surt chela"
many people refer to "Guru Granth Sahib" as "Sabad Guru Shri Guru Granth Sahib"
'shabad' is the guru and 'surt' is sikh(chela),
Both form & content are important if u respect the content u'll start respecting the form. Also if u respect the form u'll start respecting the content.
it is the shabad 'word' that is the Guru whether it is written on a piece of paper or is recited by a person.
What actually should matter is whether 1 has in fact understood the Guru's word (Gurbani)and is a person walking in the light of those word's.
I feel that better way showing respect to the Guru is by doing 'vichaar' on Guru's shabad and living life in that light or knowledge which has been passed on by Guru through different means, be it Guru Granth Sahib or through kirtan or through katha, irrespective of the source or medium.
"Savek Sikh pujan sab ayii, sab gavee har har uttam bani. Gavya sunya tinka thain paya, jin Satgur ki agya sat sat kar mani. DITTHEY MUKTH NA HOVAI, JICHHAR SHABAD NA KARI VICHAAR"
& as I said if a person has respect for the word the respect for the medium will automatically come, & if 1 does not respect the Guru's word by walking in its light (in its gyan, knowledge) it would make no difference whether u have kept the medium at the highest place and 1 is bowing his or her head everyday while the head is filled with own thoughts (manmat) rather than with guru's word or knowledge referred as (gurmat).
so both content and form are important, and it cannot be said 1 is more important than the other.
for ex. appearance of a Sikh, both the form and knowledge or idea behind it are important, if a person just have the appearance and not the knowledge it would be of no use and will become just "Karam Kaand" whereas if a person just have the knowledge and does not have the form, knowledge WILL B OF NO USE.
Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh
ReplyDeleteVeer Deshveer Singh ji,
I don't agree with the last paragraph that you've written.
"for ex. appearance of a Sikh, both the form and knowledge or idea behind it are important, if a person just have the appearance and not the knowledge it would be of no use and will become just "Karam Kaand" whereas if a person just have the knowledge and does not have the form, knowledge WILL B OF NO USE."
As far as I understand, I disagree with what you have written.
I partially agree with what you have said in this line.
"if a person just have the appearance and not the knowledge it would be of no use"
I need more light on this
"if a person just have the knowledge and does not have the form, knowledge WILL B OF NO USE."
I don't think guru maharaj has said anything about the form.
Rehat Pyari Mujhko, Sikh Pyara Naahi..........
Also , Rehani Rahe Soi Sikh Mera
I am not really sure if I am on the same page as of yours. Can you throw some more light on what u meant in the last para.
Kiha Suneya Maaf
Tuhada Chota Veer
Prabh Singh
Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh
Prabh ji sure i'll go a bit in detail... what was meant by
ReplyDelete"if a person just have the knowledge and does not have the form, knowledge WILL B OF NO USE."
is if a person has the knowledge that he being a sikh (learner) of guru (teacher) has gained knowledge that to do "bandgi" guru sahib said "tan, mann, dhan, sab saoup gur ko, hukum maniye paieay"
when u have devoted ur everything to Guru not by thinking that okey its mine body or thoughts or money that I am giving u but by saying "TERA TUJH KO Sauptey"
as it is the creator who has designed every thing as per his liking, and the one whose aim is to be his humble servant, to be one with the creator, will not go against his wish as the natural look of a man is with kesh, and it isn't sumthing that has been giving by Guru Sahib, its been given by the creator, and the prachaar that "if u keep kesh u'll become sikh" has done more harm as what has been taken from this is "if ur a muslim or a hindu u should not keep kesh as "kesh sikh di nishani hai" and if they keep kesh they'll become sikh. "aapan keshaa they kabal ho gaye" when in fact they r important not just for a sikh but 4 ne1 whose aim is "bandagi". No one is telling ne 1 to become a sikh, if u don't want to, don't become a sikh but if ur aim is "bandgi" then don't disrespect his creation by thinking that u have a better idea or smarter way out by shaving them, as Guru sahib said "chaturai sayaanfaa kittey kaam na aaiyae"
even after having this knowledge if one still tries to change ones look by shaving thinking that it will make him look good then that knowledge without the form is of no use, as one is still attached with body more than he is attached with the creator, in other words its still "manmat" so knowledge in this regard stands useless...
waheguru
I am writing this to no one in particular in strict continuance to the discussion even though I feel that this is out of context for the post.
ReplyDeleteI feel that we are too concerned about the physical form of the Guru and least concerned about what they guided us to. I also strongly believe that Gurus were after all humans. Holy, Spiritually illuminated but humans. They are revered for not what or who they were but for what they taught; and it has been similar teachings from Pratham pita to Dasam pita. I will quote one verse each by Guru Nanak Dev ji and Guru Gobid Singh ji to drive my point. First "Na oh mare na thaage jaye, jiss ke raam vase man maahe" quoted in Japji Sahib and second "jo kal ko ikk vaar dhiaye hai, taake kaal nikat nahi aaye hai" quoted in kabiyobach benti. Now here, the form, the words chosen to express, may be different but the CONTEXT IS SAME; that he who has Param Pita Parmatma in his heart can overcome the fear of death.
To come back to human form of Gurus, I have been listening to Kabiyobach benti a lot lately. It was orated by Dasam pita as is clear by the name of bani(Kabiyobaach benti=Kavi Uvaach benti. I have noticed that it can be divided in three logical parts that is Ardaas(Prayer), Ustat(Praise) and Samarpan(Dedication). In Ardaas part(From beginning till Sahib sant sahay pyare ) he clearly prays to Almighty lord for salvaging self, family and supporters(disciples of Parambrahm) This reinforces the another old saying, "Gur bin gat naahi". This underlines the fact that Guru is the WAY TO SALVATION.
Aren't we thus too involved in the Forms of Guru and not with what they intended to say and do to us? Isn't it manmantt?
waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh
ReplyDeletei do agree with what sherry has written. One of the things that i've believed is that, a hindu can be a sikh, a muslim can be a sikh and someone from an unknown religion can be a sikh too. I don't consider SIKHISM as a religion. Its a WAY OF LIFE ....again to make it clear, this is my point of view.I don't know how much you will agree with me but this is what i think. One can be a Hindu and a sikh , a Muslim and a Sikh at any point of time. I guess you know the Baani by BHAGATS and BHATTS has been added in to Guru Granth Sahib. They were not sikhs by appearance but they were sikhs by their thoughts. Please don't misinterpret this as, we are allowed to cut our hair or smoke tobacco etc. What i mean is, if someone is born into a MUSLIM family and is a practicing muslim is a SIKH too. Baba Farid ji, Sayeen Mian Meer Ji, Sant Parmanand, Baba Namdev ji, ....and many other names are attached to sikhs, because they were sikhs by thought not by appearance.
Deshveer singh ji, what you are saying is true in a way, but think my wat i've said in a broader way. Let me know if you disagree with or have questions abt my post
waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh
see all the prophets had 'Kesh' Guru Nanak had 'Kesh' even Jesus Christ had 'Kesh' even Muslims after Haj they are not suppose to cut beard but now they hav found a way out, they cut the mustaches & keep beards & m sure even shivji had 'kesh' & yes every1 had same appearance as far as 'kesh' goes.
ReplyDelete& also if 1 does not want 2 b too much concerned by form, then let it b the way it is, y to bother 1self with shaving or trimming, n think now that makes me feel good or look good, y is keeping a natural form or look considered as person is too much involved with appearance and the 1's those who r actually involved with appearance considered as not involved with appearance....
& sikh as described in gurbani is 'surt' (attention) 1 can learn only by paying attention, if 1 does not pay attention how can 1 learn or how can b called a learner or a sikh (as no 1 can learn without paying attention) and 'surt' does not have ne form...
as long as ur inner self does not pay attention your ears would assist in hearing but u wud not hear whtever the other might b saying, it wud just b a noise, ur eyes might be open, u might be looking at something but if r not paying attention 2 what ur seeing u won't even know that u have reached ur house, u will simply walk past it and once u pay attention to what u r seeing u'll realize u have walk past ur house, as u were not paying attention to whtever u were seeing it did not register inside, so its ur inside that learns...
so if ur mann is paying attention to what ur eyes r seeing what ur ears are listening to what ur tongue is tasting to what ur hands r doing u can b a good painter or craftsman or nething, the possibilities r endless but only as long as ur paying attention, if u don't pay attention u won't learn, u can't b called a learner or a sikh...
and to what sort of a teacher or Guru ur going to learn also matters, if a teacher himself is not free how can he guide some1 else to b free..
"aisey gur ko bal bal jaieay, aap mukth mohe tare"
so as long ur learning 4m a teacher who is himself free be it of ne so called religion ur a Sikh ur a learner...
but if ur learning 4m a teacher who is himself more attached with money or power or is in grasp of ne of the five evils (kaam krodh lobh moh ahankaar) that is what u'll learn and u can judge 4 urself whether ur gonna b free or not...
being free is being free... not to worry about getting old or dying or being rich or poor or looking younger or handsome 4ever or nething for that case, it should b like, what ever u give me lord, its happily accepted b it maan or apmaan, be it happiness or sadness or b it nehthing everything is accepted no complains
"jyon bhave tion raakh layi, hum sharan prabh aayi...."
so don't worry about looks like trimming it or shaving it, get out of all that b free "unless ur not out of it ur not free" u wud b too much possessed about the form (looks)....
even m bit possessed about the looks or form so I know within m not free but I want to b n hope good lord give me strength so that even I can b totally care free and live as Guru Sahib says always in 'chardi kala' no matter what happens always in anand...
rab sab teh mehar kare
waheguru
@Deshveer: I talked to one of my Muslim friends about shaving moustache and not beard.Its not about finding a way to alter the appearance but a way to avoid contamination. When they perform 'wuzu' at time of Namaaz, the water they sip must not be contaminated and they shave the moustaches to avoid dipping the hair in it. Its something like Jains do by covering their mouth.
ReplyDeleteGuru Sahib says "Kaya manjas kaun guna, jo ghat bhitar hai malna"
ReplyDelete"laukey athsath teerath nahi, kauda pan tau na jai"
means bharoon ishnan kar key koi pavitar bahi hunda, jadon tak hirdey dey andar safai nahi kiti.
tongue with which one recites the very prayer, isn't that contaminated or is it just the mustache that needs to be decontaminated...
the body in which the person resides has its own life and keeps changing every second, just let it be the way it is focus and know what actually matters... one day it will wither away no matter how many shaves one has given it or how many hours one has spent in the gym, as long as the focus is appearance (form) there is no way one can be influenced or is even close enough to be thinking about the formless...
may everyone fulfill the purpose of life... and live wisely in the presence of truth (sach)
waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh